I'm not sure everyone in a country "knowing" to drive on the same side of the road is an example of a Schelling point -- drivers are trained to do this.
Also not sure if fads, like "everyone orders a flat white", are instances of Schelling points, but that seems more reasonable as a Schelling point than driving on the same side of the road.
More generally, didn't really understand the point of this article. I guess the author is trying to say that as technology improves, people are gaining the ability to customize their experiences. Framing this as "anti-Schelling points" doesn't make sense to me - what shared game is being played? At its most game-like, you could say that people are just trying to maximize their own utility without worrying (or having to worry) about shared economy of scale.
> I'm not sure everyone in a country "knowing" to drive on the same side of the road is an example of a Schelling point -- drivers are trained to do this.
The driving side is usually also the walking side. When I travel to a country with another orientation, I bump into people on the sidewalk or corridors a few times before adjusting. Same on the way back, all without driving a car myself.
> the walking direction matching the driving direction is.
Not really though since that's also dictation and not something that naturally occurs. In fact you usually have to teach children to walk with vehicle traffic, because the natural inclination is to walk against it so that you can see the cars coming and move out of the way vs walking with traffic and hoping they maintain correct distance from you.
in the case of drink orders, there's a slight benefit to ordering something unique (at least unique within the queue you're standing in). you don't have to remember your place in line, or negotiate with someone else about who was there first
the space of possible drink orders isn't so large that you'll be collision-free by default (like UUIDs), so there's some incentive to guess what other people will order, and adjust your order to avoid collisions
> in the case of drink orders, there's a slight benefit to ordering something unique (at least unique within the queue you're standing in). you don't have to remember your place in line, or negotiate with someone else about who was there first
A normally-functioning vendor would call out the completed order by order number, so this problem just can't arise. You can't take someone else's order identical to yours any more than you can take someone else's order for ten times as much food as you purchased.
i don't think i've ever seen a cafe do that (unless you count mcdonald's as a cafe). even the starbuck's thing of using your name is rare, but others have picked it up
most cafes i've been in, the queue is usually short enough that the barista knows who ordered what. at peak times, they can't keep track of it, though, so the customers keep track themselves and it usually works well enough that nobody is going to optimize it
They usually have FIFO system anyway, so even if everyone was ordering the same thing, it wouldn't matter. I suppose a situation where you have multiple baristas and some work faster than others or some people have simpler orders might force customers to keep track though.
> I think the variety in barista coffee is different from the variety in, say, fashion or wine because with fashion and wine there is social signalling and all kinds of things going on
Sounds like OP just doesn't care about coffee thst much. Fine for them, but any subject has a subculture; there are definitely social signaling games within the coffee world
1. In principle these are also Schelling points because one aim of Schelling's work was to highlight that multiple focal points are possible (which might or might not be what one hopes for with regards to nuclear weapons, so in contrast, the tipping points should get more attention..)
>His basic idea was that the expected profitability of engaging in corruption depends on its prevalence. The key result of the so-called Schelling diagram is the existence of multiple equilibria and a tipping point.
I wonder if there's merit to discarding ideas based on where they arise from.
Similar thing happened on another hackernews post, author developed a programming paradigm and explained it with his example which consisted of analyzing personal expenses.
Maybe you will discover something profound when thinking about your starbucks coffee or when analyzing your coffee expenses, but if you discard that and it is really important, the thought should pop up some other place where it is more important, like your actual job, or something useful.
The milk preparation is where the barista's skill comes in.
It's much harder to make black coffee so well you'd want a professional for it. I think Glitch Coffee in Tokyo is the only place I've ever been that I've felt is worth it.
(Anti-bonus points to Philz in SV, which has the aesthetic of a specialty coffee place but actually sells Starbucks-style "totally burnt coffee with tons of cream added" products except worse.)
A flat white isn't a black coffee with stuff added, its an espresso with foamed milk added - and as another commenter said, the skill of the barista is largely in preparing freshly foamed milk with the coffee machine that lives with them behind the counter.
If you know all that and still think our coffee supply systems should go back to being more of a conveyer belt of foul tasting caffeine water, with accoutrements added by the user, instead of waiting in a queue for 20 minutes to get the 'best' flat white - yeah you might have a point
I'm not sure everyone in a country "knowing" to drive on the same side of the road is an example of a Schelling point -- drivers are trained to do this.
Also not sure if fads, like "everyone orders a flat white", are instances of Schelling points, but that seems more reasonable as a Schelling point than driving on the same side of the road.
More generally, didn't really understand the point of this article. I guess the author is trying to say that as technology improves, people are gaining the ability to customize their experiences. Framing this as "anti-Schelling points" doesn't make sense to me - what shared game is being played? At its most game-like, you could say that people are just trying to maximize their own utility without worrying (or having to worry) about shared economy of scale.
The point is you can talk about game theory if you make everything about game theory.
> I'm not sure everyone in a country "knowing" to drive on the same side of the road is an example of a Schelling point -- drivers are trained to do this.
The driving side is usually also the walking side. When I travel to a country with another orientation, I bump into people on the sidewalk or corridors a few times before adjusting. Same on the way back, all without driving a car myself.
Although the driving side isn't a Schelling point, the walking direction matching the driving direction is.
> the walking direction matching the driving direction is.
Not really though since that's also dictation and not something that naturally occurs. In fact you usually have to teach children to walk with vehicle traffic, because the natural inclination is to walk against it so that you can see the cars coming and move out of the way vs walking with traffic and hoping they maintain correct distance from you.
in the case of drink orders, there's a slight benefit to ordering something unique (at least unique within the queue you're standing in). you don't have to remember your place in line, or negotiate with someone else about who was there first
the space of possible drink orders isn't so large that you'll be collision-free by default (like UUIDs), so there's some incentive to guess what other people will order, and adjust your order to avoid collisions
> in the case of drink orders, there's a slight benefit to ordering something unique (at least unique within the queue you're standing in). you don't have to remember your place in line, or negotiate with someone else about who was there first
A normally-functioning vendor would call out the completed order by order number, so this problem just can't arise. You can't take someone else's order identical to yours any more than you can take someone else's order for ten times as much food as you purchased.
i don't think i've ever seen a cafe do that (unless you count mcdonald's as a cafe). even the starbuck's thing of using your name is rare, but others have picked it up
most cafes i've been in, the queue is usually short enough that the barista knows who ordered what. at peak times, they can't keep track of it, though, so the customers keep track themselves and it usually works well enough that nobody is going to optimize it
> at peak times, they can't keep track of it
They usually have FIFO system anyway, so even if everyone was ordering the same thing, it wouldn't matter. I suppose a situation where you have multiple baristas and some work faster than others or some people have simpler orders might force customers to keep track though.
“I have a flat white for Steve” is comedy gold at a crowded starbucks.
Strongly disagree with this:
> I think the variety in barista coffee is different from the variety in, say, fashion or wine because with fashion and wine there is social signalling and all kinds of things going on
Sounds like OP just doesn't care about coffee thst much. Fine for them, but any subject has a subculture; there are definitely social signaling games within the coffee world
1. In principle these are also Schelling points because one aim of Schelling's work was to highlight that multiple focal points are possible (which might or might not be what one hopes for with regards to nuclear weapons, so in contrast, the tipping points should get more attention..)
2. As for attractive continuums
https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1007/s10957-013-0420-7
>His basic idea was that the expected profitability of engaging in corruption depends on its prevalence. The key result of the so-called Schelling diagram is the existence of multiple equilibria and a tipping point.
What’s with all the flags hovering round the page? Very distracting, worse than most adverts.
Other readers' cursors. You can turn that off with the 'quiet mode' toggle in the upper right.
I think the idea is cute but, a cursor while reading? Seems odd
I wonder if there's merit to discarding ideas based on where they arise from.
Similar thing happened on another hackernews post, author developed a programming paradigm and explained it with his example which consisted of analyzing personal expenses.
Maybe you will discover something profound when thinking about your starbucks coffee or when analyzing your coffee expenses, but if you discard that and it is really important, the thought should pop up some other place where it is more important, like your actual job, or something useful.
P.S: Highly memorable background
Wtf is that background
Just sell black coffee and let the customer add in other stuff if they want it
The milk preparation is where the barista's skill comes in.
It's much harder to make black coffee so well you'd want a professional for it. I think Glitch Coffee in Tokyo is the only place I've ever been that I've felt is worth it.
(Anti-bonus points to Philz in SV, which has the aesthetic of a specialty coffee place but actually sells Starbucks-style "totally burnt coffee with tons of cream added" products except worse.)
> Anti-bonus points to Philz in SV
Oh, we're going to make this personal??? Fine. In that case:
The Brewed Awakenings chain in Rhode Island has really good coffee. And a great atmosphere compared to please-leave places like Starbucks.
There, I said it.
> Oh, we're going to make this personal???
Personal? Are you Phil??
A flat white isn't a black coffee with stuff added, its an espresso with foamed milk added - and as another commenter said, the skill of the barista is largely in preparing freshly foamed milk with the coffee machine that lives with them behind the counter.
If you know all that and still think our coffee supply systems should go back to being more of a conveyer belt of foul tasting caffeine water, with accoutrements added by the user, instead of waiting in a queue for 20 minutes to get the 'best' flat white - yeah you might have a point
People don't go to those places for a plain black coffee.
I do
Why?
I like black coffee
this is the other solution: it doesn't really matter if the queue is a bit out of order, if they all get the same thing with little delay
Voronoi centers!